"So, Mom, what happened to the other people?"
"What other people?"
"The other people. The people who weren't on the ark."
"The ark? Noah's Ark?
"Yeah. You know how he built that ark and then put the animals on it and then it rained for 40 days but Noah and the animals were safe? What about the other people who weren't on the ark?"
"Oh, those people? God thought they were bad, so he killed them."
Ok, so I didn't say the last line there. I ended the conversation with a weak, "Um, I'm not sure what happened to those people. Maybe they built their own arks." But, really. How is a parent to answer these questions? Despite all of the cute children's toys modeled after it (not to mention the catchy songs and the two-by-two-themed nursery bedding) isn't the Noah's Ark story, like so many other Biblical tales, designed to hammer home the point that if people aren't "good", God's wrath will strike them down?
The trouble is, that's not my God.
We're far more "spiritual" than "religious" and many at the very liberal Episcopal church we attend would say the same thing. Our priest fills her sermons with the history behind the Gospel readings and meanings behind the words: we are not a church of literal interpretation. I'm proud of the fact that our congregation has attended political rallies in support of gay marriage. Questioning the church, the Bible and religion itself is encouraged. We end every service with the words "Life is short and we do not have much time to gladden the hearts of those who travel the way with us. So be swift to love, make haste to be kind." Not a spark of fire nor speck of brimstone to be found. And yet, these Bible stories are what they are. "What happened to the other people?"
As fall approaches, it is time to decide whether we will sign Aidan up for Sunday School. We have not in the past. Apart from the oasis found in our church, we struggle with religion and Aidan's questions about the Noah's Ark story are exactly why we do. Should we send him to Sunday School to learn Bible stories when we believe that "stories" are all they are? As an adult, I can get past the metaphors to find meaning at times. I can listen to thought-provoking sermons and appreciate the messages of acceptance lying beyond any stories of wrath. But a 6 year old child? Should we put that on him? And if we don't? Are we keeping him from something that might end up to have some meaning to him? Bill is inclined to say we all skip church completely. I'm a flip-flopper.
I told Aidan to ask our priest about "the other people" in the Noah's Ark story. She told him that, really, God doesn't send floods or famine to kill people. She said the story of Noah's Ark was one way the people of that time explained things like floods and hurricanes. "They thought natural disasters meant God wanted them to be better people, but I don't think God works that way", she said. It was a nice answer. It satisfied Aidan, and therefore me, for the moment. But I'm still struggling with Sunday School registration. "What happened to the other people?" indeed.
Tuesday, August 22, 2006
Of Noah And The Dead Bad People
Posted by Jennifer at 9:18 PM
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16 comments:
Um. I could have written this post. I'm so glad I'm not alone with my struggles.
Then again, here in the Bible Belt, I'm far more alone than I would be if I were in other parts of the world. Wanna come be my neighbor? We can blaspheme together ;-)
Raising kids is so hard! Sounds like you are doing a great job. You just follow your heart and make sure to include your family values and beliefs. Your kids are hilarious (and smart!!). AND think of how kind your kid is, to wonder about those NOT on Noah's Ark. Yeah, you're a great mom.
LC
Oh, we struggle with this *so* much. As you know, we aren't religious (spiritual, though), and we live in the south, so it's a challenge. Both kids went/go to a church-based preschool, and we've had our share of challenging conversations...
Thanks for posting this, Jen! I often wonder how other moms deal with these questions. It must be the age - Kira is all over these tough questions too. I think it's crazy that Noah's story is often told to kids like it's a bedtime story. It's right up there with Passover, I think, and I haven't seen any "angel of death" nursery room sets lately. ;)
Do you want to know how we answer this one? Of course it's different, but for what it's worth this is what we say (and we just dealt with this one, so it's fresh in my mind):
What happened to all the people?
Everyone died without knowing God, just like they would have if there hadn't been a flood, God just moved the date up. Moses tells us that everyone was doing evil all the time (including Noah). It was a terrible time to live and God needed to do something about it, so he decided to be nice to Noah and warn him of the flood and tell him how to build an ark and gave him 70 years to preach and try to save his friends.
But no one got on the boat with him.
And we know that God was very sad about what happened because he sent Jesus to die for us, so that we don't have to die. Because God would rather suffer himself than watch us suffer.
We always bring it back to Jesus because we believe that every story in the Bible is ultimately about Jesus.
Anyway - that's our take on it!!
Re: Sunday school - I'll just say that we went to a church that believed differently than my family did when I was a kid and it wasn't much fun to hear one thing at church, and then be taught differently at home. It did teach me to think for myself, but I felt like the odd man out. It's something I keep in mind with my kids when I pick a church, school, etc. In fact, we just changed churches and this was one of the big reasons.
I hope you don't mind my posting this comment. I do really like looking at these questions from different angles and hearing other perspectives. It's what life is all about, I think. :) (but I won't be offended if you delete it!)
Rob, I know you and I have very different views on religion, but I welcome your thoughts and would never delete you. :)
I also could have written this post. I think you handled it beautifully and I really like your priest's answer.
This is a big reason that we quit attending church. Our was also Episcopal, but really leaning toward the 'Catholic' (ie less liberal) side. I loved our priest, but vehemently disagreed with him on many things, and I'd just sit there through his sermons thinking, "Hmmm... I don't look at it that way."
We had an assistant priest, who was also a woman and much more liberal. But she ended up leaving for another church, and we haven't been back since Christmas Eve.
Your church sounds cool. Our congregation would never, EVER attend a gay rights rally. *sigh*
This is such a tough issue. My parents never took me to religious services, and I have always felt something is missing from my basic cultural education. My husband's family went to church every week, and as an adult he refuses to step foot inside a church because he had too many experiences with folks telling him what to think.
I'm not sure what we as parents will ultimately do. Just know you are not the only one struggling with this issue.
I hear you sister, wow do I hear you. I feel very very lucky to have found a very progressive united church which doesn't look at the bible literally and really focuses on values-based dogma free worship.
Indeed, after the reading, our response is, "this is the witness of God's people." Then we usually read from some other literature that speaks to us at that moment (Dickens, Walt Whitman, Viktor Frankl etc) and the response: "This too is the witness of God's people."
One thing our church is finding very hard is finding a Sunday School curriculum that reflects our values of a non-theistic non-interventionist God. It's been the singlemost hardest struggle we've faced. If we are able to develop something in the next few years, I'll let you know. :-)
We read a few children's versions of Bible stories (like Noah) to our son w/o commentary until my mother-in-law took him to her church a few Sundays ago. (How's THAT for side-stepping the issue? Send him to church with Grandma!) Then he started explaining to us -- in the way of 4-year-olds -- what it's all about. The other day we talked about the story of Easter, how Jesus lived a long time ago and then he died -- abrupt interruption from my son. "Jesus isn't dead," he said. "Well, he did die, but then he went to live with God." And viola, Christianity in a sentence.
Anyway I really meant to say that we struggle with this too, in part because we (my husband and me) are still struggling to define what we believe ourselves.
Good luck!
It's good to know we're not the only ones struggling with this issue. Sometimes I wish we (I) could just fall solidly on one side of the fence or the other. It's not to be.
Dana, I LOVE the "This too is the witness of God's people." part of your service. How beautiful!
Great question!
I think the Bible is a beautiful piece of literature, and I happen to think it is *true*, as well, so I can't wait to share it with my future kids.
I have very fond memories of Sunday School in the deep South, and I am very glad my parents sent me.
I also think that learning Bible stories helped me appreciate reading and literature more, and also understand many of the symbols, metaphors and allusions that are referenced throughout English and American literature. If you don't know Bible stories, many of these things won't make sense.
So- even if it is purely for educational purposes, I would recommend a children's Sunday School program.
I also think that a lot of our common "fairy tales" are more grisly than Bible stories- wicked stepmothers trying to kill their children, etc!
Sorry to interrupt - as much as I care about Noah and those "others" who didn't get on board - what's the new twist on Survivor? Don't keep me hangin' here!! There are more important issues!!
Oh, I'm kidding - no hate mail please - I'm a Jesus lover.
LC
LC - barging in on Jen's blog here to update you on Survivor.
The latest rumor is that there will initially be 4 tribes - seperated this time by RACE.
I'm not sure how I feel about this; my gut reaction to it is, "Not a great idea."
LC, yes, the twist is an initial division of tribes by race. EEK. HB, "Not a great idea" is my gut too. But, of course, it won't stop me from watching. ;)
I'm a little late jumping in, but this is a topic close to my heart. We are liberal Quakers, so we don't take the Bible as literal or infailible. Nevertheless, I do regard it as spiritually significant -- a collection of documents that are the product of God's continuing revelation to humankind.
I sometimes struggle with questions like this, but usually I just explain it much like the priest did. The only difference is that I go a step further. I don't think it's just about explaining floods. (The priest probably doesn't either, in fairness to her.) I've talked with Brianna about how many stories -- in the Bible and elsewhere -- are not factual, but nevertheless tell us something *true* about people, or life, or nature, or God etc. I read the Noah story as one about faithfulness to a cause, trust in God, and hope of renewal after crisis. I do *not* read it as "you better repent or else", though I admit it is often interpreted that way. I regard that aspect as a plot device that gets people's attention and makes the story more thrilling. Let's face it: we humans tend to be drawn to tales of tragedy and danger because life really *is* fraught with it -- even for children. (Think back to how scary it felt when you couldn't find your mother --even for a few moments -- in a public place as a small child!)
For anyone who is struggling with how to approach the Bible in a non-literal way, I highly recommend Marcus Borg's book "Reading the Bible Again for the First Time: Taking the Bible Seriously but not Literally". If you like his approach, it can go a long way toward making the Bible much less intimitating and confusing.
I'm big on Sunday School as long as the church you attend is teaching things you mostly agree with. For me it was really nice to have that pool of friends who shared the same values as I did. Even the ones who "broke the rules" at least understood what our common values were *supposed* to be. Often, I felt I could be more fully myself at church than at school. At the least, it's a place (or should be a place) where you don't have to explain where you are coming from, and where you are free from some of the negative aspects of popular culture. That's one thing my current Quaker meeting and the fundementalist church I grew up in have in common -- they are an oaisis of loving community. :o)
I know I'm really late chiming in on this one (in fairness, I only found your blog five minutes ago!), but this is such a fascinating discussion I had to jump in.
I agree that the story of Noah's ark isn't just about explaining natural disasters - in a way, it's the opposite - it explains why God doesn't wipe out evildoers more often. I think it's hard, sometimes, from our privileged historical position, to remember the urgency of that problem - why doesn't God DO SOMETHING about evil? This story represents - quite graphically - God's despair in the face of human evil and works through that to the promise of the rainbow: God WILL do something about evil, but it won't be simply to wipe it off the face of the earth.
There is something haunting about that question, though, isn't there? What about the other people? As much as I loved Sunday School when I was growing up, I'm very aware now of how the interpretations offered there served to minimize such questions, to encourage that "Well they were bad so they deserved it" kind of thinking.
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